RevThinking Podcast with Claudia Mayer – The Creative Thinker

RevThinking Podcast with Claudia Mayer – The Creative Thinker

Creatives don’t like sales. What if we rephrase it into matchmaking?

In this episode of the RevThinking Podcast, Joel Pilger sits down with we to explore the disconnect between creativity and business. We also discuss the global pandemic and how it is affecting the business world and the role of creatives in it. Listen to it now 🎧 via Soundcloud, Apple or Spotify!

RevThinking Podcast Transcription

Joel Pilger
Hi, I’m Joel Pilger and you’re listening to Episode 89 of the RevThinking podcast.

Claudia Mayer
Basically, creatives, something I hear quite often that they don’t like to say, by rephrasing that and saying, let’s do some matchmaking. And let’s see if we match.

RevThinking Podcast
Welcome to the RevThinking podcast for creative entrepreneurs who know the best way to deal with the future is to create it. This is the conversation between creative leaders and consultants discussing what it really takes to run a thriving creative business.

Joel Pilger
Hello, all you fabulous creative entrepreneurs. If you’re an owner of a creative studio, maybe a production company, but it could be an owner at an agency or at experiential studio, maybe sound design, music. It’s good to have you here. Welcome to the podcast. Hard to believe we are just about to publish Episode 90 of the RevThinking podcast and you know now that things are well, I’m not going to say things are starting to normalize despite COVID. But I’ll just say that the the value of the podcast, and my commitment to it is returned. And I have, gosh, about a dozen or so guests lined up coming in the months ahead, that I think are going to be really, really great. It’s funny, I just got asked from a friend of mine in Germany, he was saying, Hey, who who else do people listen to other than you on the RevThinking podcasts? Like, what are the other podcasts that people listen to that listen to RevThinking? And I said, I don’t know. But that’s a good question. So I went on and did a little research and I and I found out that it’s kind of interesting. A lot of you listen to motion podcasts. So like the masters of motion podcast, animal laters, the motion hatch podcast, which is great. I’m fans of those podcasts and also School of motion. That’s a popular one that you guys are listening to. But I also saw a few interesting, shall we say, maybe left or right of center I saw Jordan Brady’s respect the process podcast, the daily brief from Promax, a few other interesting ones, the two Bob’s podcasts from my, my peers, David C. Baker and Blair Enns, as well as ditching hourly, which is Jonathan Starks great podcast as well as the business of authority. So if you’re looking for other podcasts to listen to, these are some of the shows that your friends and your peers are listening to. Now, that helps me set up today’s guest. Because one of my big goals here on the RevThinking podcast is always of course talking about the business side of running a creative studio, a creative firm. So this is where we explore this intersection of creativity and commerce. And I love bringing a wide perspective, divergent views. I love bringing in guests that represent the client side of course, the owner side. We’ve done many owners in my profile of the creative entrepreneur series. And today it’s it’s really no exception because today I’m bringing to the show, business coach Claudia Mayer. Claudia is based in the Netherlands. And she brings very much a diverse view. She’s got a lot of international experience working as what I will call a creative consultant. She happens to be trilingual, so she speaks English, and German and Dutch, and she works internationally. In fact, she says she does a lot of virtual and face to face coaching. Originally from Austria, but she studied in Spain, she worked in Austria, Netherlands, India, China, Singapore, so she’s been around a lot and she does a lot of professional coaching in what she calls strategic business development, b2b marketing, sales and client relationships. But her I think her go-to her bailiwick, if you will, her sweet spot is that she passionate about creativity and business. And she loves to coach creatives and designers to develop professionally and personally. The other thing I love about her is when I discovered her and we had a few conversations because we realized we have a lot in common, we thought there was a lot of interesting things that we could discuss and share. She loves illustrating and drawing. So she uses a lot of creative tools like mind mapping and design thinking and visualization, to help relay ideas and principles that creatives can use to be more successful, professionally and in business. So I hope you enjoy this conversation that I have with Claudia, we get into things like is there a disconnect between creativity and business? And of course, what’s her specific expertise? And we even talked about some of the timeliness of the pandemic. And how’s that affecting business and creatives and these times, a lot of topics we get into and it’s fun. So I hope you enjoy this conversation between myself and Claudia Mayer. When I was looking at your background, I noticed that you started your company Coaching by Claudia in 2015, which is about the same time that I started consulting and working with RevThink and that may be curious to find out what was the genesis or the impetus behind you deciding, I want to start coaching and I want to start coaching at this intersection of creativity and business.

Claudia Mayer
Well, it’s a very good question. It’s not an easy answer, because it was really a process. It was not this one moment it was process. Then a few things a few pieces came together. So before I started this company, I was working in an architectural firm, company called UNStudio doing very futuristic architectural projects around the world. And I worked there in business development. Ffter two years, we decided to go in different paths. And for a very long time, I had this curiosity and passion and interest in coaching. So in the beginning. I think it was something that I learned: being curious and asking good questions, deepens a conversation and learned, oh, there is profession called coaching. After I quit working at this architectural firm, I suddenly felt: okay, now the only thing I need to do is this professional coach training offered by CTI from the States. And then there I was with my beautiful certificate. And then I thought so now what do I do with this toolkit with this skills coaching, because coaching to me is not a profession. It’s rather a skill set to do something with it. At the beginning, I felt: okay, I have been living in Asia for about five years. So I could probably guide Asian professionals, when they move to Europe and settle down for their studies or for work. And while doing a research on their needs, I figured out that I missed something. And I just couldn’t name what it was. And then I was sitting down to have a coffee with a friend telling about my situation. And then she suddenly said: but Claudia, you always worked with creative people. And that was the aha moment when I thought: Oh, yes, this is missing – this is the missing part. And then I turned my coaching services from focusing on Asians to focus on creatives, creative business owners, and creative entrepreneurs.

Joel Pilger
So tell us, what was the research that led to that discovery? Was there some sort of findings or discovery that you came across in your research?

Claudia Mayer
When I first focused on the Asians, on Asian professionals, via my network, I interviewed 30 Asians that moved to Europe and I created a huge mind map with a lot of insights. Actually to figure out where’s the sweet spot about how could I coach them and what are the needs they have that I could fulfill. So, I love doing that, but I somehow I think my intuition felt that there was one component missing and that was the creative part and being also in a creative sphere and atmosphere and I was missing that. Once my friend mentioned that so clearly, that was the moment when I knew: Okay, this is this is it, it just felt right for this is. This is me: somehow the intersection between business and mainly the marketing the sales pitching part, and creative companies.

Joel Pilger
Because I remember last time you and I spoke, I thought it was really interesting that you talked about sometimes there’s this disconnect between creatives and business. And I certainly find that a lot here in the States, even in Europe, myself, and I’m curious to hear your point of view, what what do you find and why is there this disconnect?

Claudia Mayer
In my experience, it all starts with education. So it depends how a creative starts his or her career, which type of school he or she goes. Here in Europe, there are a lot of schools and high schools or  universities that are either art schools, or they are rather business schools with a creative focus. I think a lot of the graduates coming from art schools, they are excellent in their skills. They’re excellent in their creative expression and production part, but they get very little training in how to translate their creative talent into business value. So how to pitch, present themselves, how to understand where is my mark, how to reach this target? It depends a little bit on the educational background. And I think it also depends a little bit on on the personality, because there are some of my clients, they were really interested in the business side and they were curious, and then they were learning and some others, they found that this is a burden. This is something that they have to do and I find difficult, but at the end, I think it all boils down to what what do you know because if you know the basics, it’s less scary to do it.

Joel Pilger
Well then makes me wonder about this question. And that is, I often find that creative people have this desire to chart their own path, to start a company or start their own studio someday. This is a very common goal. And then when they do this, they find some success. And then their success becomes their own enemy, because they must now learn business. And this is where they struggle as their business grows, they have to learn business, but many of them make this transition and do quite well. But what about the reverse? I find it very rare that a person who is successful in business says, Oh, now I would like to become a creative person and integrate these two halves of myself. What do you find, what has been your experience? Is it is it similar?

Claudia Mayer
I would say it’s similar because, as I said before, I think it starts a lot with your education, and while it’s actually students, you know, in their teenage age, they have to decide what they study. And I can imagine that a lot of students chose choose for an art related study because it sounds more interesting. And it’s more probably based on the talent so they rather first choose for the creative part then learn the business later on. And I think a lot of the students will choose a business school, you really get formed into a certain kind of thinking. Okay, if there is a problem, you need to start with facts and figures and analysis and I think the approach of designers and creatives, is richer. So I agree on you that probably there are more starting from the creative and then learning or embracing the business side then the opposite.

Joel Pilger
Because I know one of your areas of expertise that you’ve mentioned, is that you are helping creatives in business by bringing them more joy and more alignment in doing business. So what are the common problems or frustrations that you help your clients solve? I’m really curious to hear. Do you mostly work with creatives and then help them become stronger in business or vice versa?

Claudia Mayer
Rather the first one. So rather it’s creatives who want to grow. So growth is the major topic. And when I started my business in 2015, I did of course, some of my research and I interviewed or I had a survey among some creative entrepreneurs, and I did ask them, what are your biggest challenges because I simply didn’t know. I knew of course, from other existing research, I knew the common topics, but I wanted to hear from them. And I also wanted to hear what are the quotes and how did they phrase it. So when I looked at the results, the most common challenge was everything to do with client acquisition and sales. So that means finding clients and growing them, and for instance, there was one quote, ‘I’ve got the creative but not business knowledge’. So that was a very common quote from the respondents, and that is connected with this also very common challenge, the positioning. So, for instance, one quote was: ‘Going out there and tell others what exactly I do’. So basically, pitching and translating what your services or products are and how they are relevant for the target market. Another topic or challenge mentioned was the personal management, so personal development, and specifically time or task management and making decisions. And that’s a very juicy topicc, making decisions because in my experience, a lot of creatives have several ambitions. So several big goals they want to achieve and that is, of course, fantastic because it shows that this is a person who sets goals for him or herself, but it also makes it really difficult to achieve multiple ambitions. What is your experience in that? Do you also hear that sometimes that creatives tend to have different various goals?

Joel Pilger
Yeah, it’s interesting. Did you ask that because it is quite common part of what I find is that most of the creative entrepreneurs that I work with are incredibly talented, and they have numerous talents. And this can actually be a problem. Because when you have four or five or seven or 10, different skills where you excel, you find yourself very challenged to pick one what is the one or two or three things I should focus on? Because I’m good at so many different types of activities or skills. And this I find is really a lifelong journey of discovery of what I call identifying your genius because there is one or two or three things where you can truly be great. And that’s ultimately where your success lies. But it is difficult because in your early days when you’re young, there’s many voices, there’s parents, there’s school, there’s society, there’s a lot of expectation. And so it’s difficult to choose and to focus. Is that is that been your experience as well?

Claudia Mayer
Yes, indeed. So it’s the basically the sweet spot of what you’re really good at and what you really love to do. Because if you love to do it, we will automatically come become better. And if you’re good at it, you will also see the results and enjoy it more. So it’s this combination of being good at and enjoying, and that relates very well to another finding in this research I did I. I also aked: do you have clear business vision? And it was surprising to me that a very small percentage, so only 14% said yes, absolutely. And the rest they said yes, I’m pretty sure or I’m a little bit sure, some of them didn’t know it all but only a small percentage, so more or less out of hundred, they were really sure about what exactly their vision is. And that is something that again relates to the multiple ambitions, because if you have this broad talents and interests and creative people, they tend to be more open minded, they are more stimulated by everything that happens, everything they see they connect it immediately to new ideas, new concepts, and that again makes it more difficult to take decisions and to choose and to say: Okay, this is exactly where I want to go. So this is one of the repeating topics in my experience, typical for credit business owners and creative entrepreneurs.

Joel Pilger
Yeah, I would agree, I find there’s this very common I call it a myth. Almost like a lie or deception that we tell ourselves as creatives very often will say something like, well, if I just focus on doing good work, the rest will take care of itself, or things will work out. And that sounds nice because we want to believe that if I just produce great work, if I’m a great creative, then opportunity will arise and I will win new clients and succeed in business. But unfortunately, it’s not that simple. And people can get stuck for many years, thinking, Well, I’m doing good work, why am I not succeeding? Like others are succeeding or why am I not achieving my goals? So, in your in your practice, I’m curious, are you focused in a particular area geography right near where you’re based, or do you work around Europe? Do you work around the world even?

Claudia Mayer
Yeah, around the world because nowadays like ourselves, we also have now this international podcast that you’re based in the US and I’m based in the Netherlands. So due to this fantastic internet and video conferencing tools, it doesn’t matter where a client is based so I’m serving the international market but of course with the requirement of English speaking or Dutch speaking or German speaking that are the languages I can serve and provided that there is a good internet connection.

Joel Pilger
Of course being an American, I really only speak English very well. So, you have an advantage there.

Claudia Mayer
I think that’s, again, very typical for Americans to say that. On the other side, it’s really an advantage that English is your mother tongue. But of course it’s also very comfortable to just stay in your comfort zone in English.

Joel Pilger
Yes, of course, but I also I adore working with firms outside the US because I learned so much and I feel like there’s so much knowledge and practices and strategies here in the US that I love applying in different places around the world do you find the same thing do you find working with with creatives and creative firms outside of the Netherlands or even Europe is more attentive, more interesting or more stimulating?

Claudia Mayer
It is definitely stimulating because as you said, you can always learn from other cultures and slightly different approaches on how to tackle problems or how to organize. The Netherlands is a country which in general I think is quite known for efficient working. So a lot of the firms here they are quite streamlined and they work efficiently. They’re also known for direct communication. So if something is not right, then it will be told directly. Whereas in Austria, for instance, it’s more common to have a polite, friendly, respectful way of communication. And of course, that also influences a collaboration. I have for instance, one client who has a small agency based in in the Netherlands, but he’s originally from Singapore. And we talk a lot about expansion to China. So, that is basically three cultures in one and that is, of course, always a special situation to, on the one hand, learn from other cultures and also still stay true to your own values and also address things that you think could be tackled better. So this is a little bit tricky now that I’m based here in the Netherlands I almost get used to very direct communication and switch and say, Hey, Claudia, hold on, you know, be a little bit more polite and friendly and rather say it a little bit more indirect.

Joel Pilger
What’s interesting you talk about doing business in China because I have a similar initiative, I have two or three clients that are either working there or want to additionally develop business there. Do you find that market is becoming more open and receptive to other creatives from around the world going and doing doing work there?

Claudia Mayer
At the moment, I have one Singaporean and one Chinese creative but they’re both here, both based here in the Netherlands. And the Chinese Client he is also active with creating collaborations between Dutch designers and China. And I know from his experience that it is not easy due to many language barriers, because China is also get opening and getting more international But still, it is sometimes a true barrier for communication, especially in the creative industry where it’s so much about storytelling and it’s about communicating emotions rather than facts and very clear images or drawings. So I think it also depends on how well you match the Chinese culture because they are very fast paced. So they basically work around the clock and some clients also expect that. So, you will sometimes receive messages at midnight and they expect it to answer. The other element that that maybe you’ve heard that aspect of losing a face. So, that is a very important cultural element to be aware of when doing business with China because it is a culture is very much based on the social status, on the social role you have in a company. So, it is it is wise to understand what this keeping the face means and how to basically share criticism or share if things are not the way they should be. So that’s a bit I think the challenges doing business with China.

Joel Pilger
That’s so Interesting, I’m thinking the other way I’ve heard it said is save face here in America, but yes, that those nuances become so important when, as you said, when you are creating a creative product, there is so much subjectivity and the impact of your work is very often measured by an emotional response. Did this make me feel something? Does this make me curious or excited or happy? And like you said, that’s very different than solving an objective or rational product or problem where you can easily measure do we make it bigger? Did we make more dollars did we reach a larger audience? And so solving those types of problems across different cultures is actually a lot more complicated. It’s interesting how you pointed that out. Now, I’m curious though to ask you because I know you mentioned in your work as a coach, that you had some favorite tools and some particular concepts that you use working with your clients. I was curious from a practical standpoint, it might be fun to talk about a few of those and maybe give some, some listeners some practical suggestions, some things that they can, they can do some research on their own and see if maybe some of these tools might be a fit for them. And maybe, like, maybe follow you and learn more. What but what are some of those favorite tools or favorite concepts that you use when you work with your clients?

Claudia Mayer
So when we connect back to when we talked about curiosity, I think in a way I also consider myself a creative. I’m not a creative maker or user or graphic designer, but I do consider myself a creative thinker. So I think it all starts from my own personal ongoing search for very practical, very simple tools that make work life easier. So that is my main criteria if I look for new tools to use. All of them are visual, they have a visual element and are really simple to use. So somewhere that I think what is one of my favorites principles of communication is the Golden Circle from Simon Sinek. It’s one of the most popular TED Talks, Start with Why, which is easy to explain. It’s basically three circles and in the core is the Why. So that basically means why you do what you do. What is your personal drive? Why do you get up in the morning. The middle circle is to How – that’s your approach. So it’s your way of working. The outer circle is the what? So that’s basically the service: UX design or video production, etc. So this is a very simple tool and by watching the TED talk from Simon Sinek, where he explains it with example Apple it’s some of these simple tools that always stick in my mind and that basically teach you to start with emotion, to start with meaning any kind of, for instance, imagine yourself you are in a networking event, and then someone asks: What do you do? Then you maybe think: Oh my god, what should I tell? And then you make up your sentence, but if you watch this video and define for yourself, your way: why, how what statement it’s much easier to start a conversation because you try, or the listener will see, oh, this sounds really interesting: What you mean by this and that and why are you trying to make creatives more successful. So it is a conversation opener and at the same time, it’s the opposite of the boring ‘I am x working at company y. So that’s basically the antitode to the simple. My name is … and I work at …

Joel Pilger
I love that you mentioned the Simon Sinek TED talk because I can remember vividly the first time I ever heard that TED talk, I was driving in my car and I was so blown away with the simplicity of that concept that I had to pull off the road and stop and think and realize I think I’ve just learned one of the most amazing principles. And to me now that book Start with Why and the Ted Talk are a classic, and it’s something that everyone should be familiar with. So I’m curious when you take one of your clients through that process, what changes? Is it their ability to quickly and simply express themselves in a way that is more authentic and more interesting?

Claudia Mayer
The main purpose of that is to gain more confidence and more clarity on who you are. Because a lot of the creatives that start their own agency, then they grow but start from a passion. So there is a lot of relationship between the company and yourself. There’s a lot of your own personal values in the company. So therefore, by basically drawing three circles and then writing words that pop up in your mind that fit the circle. It is sometimes more easy to fill out the what and the how. And it’s more difficult to fill out the why because it takes time, it is work, because it’s deep in yourself. It’s really the core of who you are as a person, it’s usually something that is meaningful for you. And therefore, it’s so emotional and personal. But it’s hard to pinpoint and formulate the right words because it’s so personal. So therefore the beauty of the Golden Circle is that it puts the why central and it almost forces you to dig deeper: where do I really stand for and why do I do the work that I love to do? And when I work with clients, that’s basically the most fun part because it is to look in different ways on what is the best approach to get to the core of client to elaborate the why. And as I work with creatives, of course I do not use: please fill out a 10 page XLS sheet or write a five page long story, but rather, I would invite them to dra what is meaningful for you? Why do you do that? And then ask further. And why is that important? And what does that mean to you? So it’s a combination of different powerful questions that lead to the core in combination with creative techniques. It could also be like: let’s look out of the window: What do you see and what triggers you? So that is basically, in the coach training followed, it’s called dancing in the moment – it’s being fully present and listening to your own intuition and daring to ask a question that’s in a normal set up you would hide because you think, Oh my god, I can’t ask them but that are usually the powerful questions. And if you see a client looking up with the eyes, that they are triggered to think then you know, you’re in a sweet spot because you get to the core.

Joel Pilger
I love that. And I, I’m curious to hear this, if you think one thing I’ve noticed is you’ve talked about asking these deeper questions and getting to the core. And I think answering those questions requires a certain level of vulnerability which triggers fear. Is that the most common obstacle for why creatives struggle with getting clear about this core within them: Is it is it about fear and not a lack of information?

Claudia Mayer
In that case it’s not just for creatives, it’s for all humans that we are so used to. You know, whoever you meet first say your name and just first say where you’re from, and what you do so you say the role because it’s safe everyone knows if you say oh, I’m a UX designer at Booking.com everyone knows more or less what that means. But of course it is more showing yourself if you talk about something meaningful to yourself. So I think we are just not used to have this deep conversations because our life – sometimes the daily situations – they rather try to form us: let’s be safe and let’s be comfortable and just tell the role. And that’s it. But if you dare to go deeper, then you open an opportunity to connect with people. In our case, we both share this passion to combine or to help grow creative companies. Probably you do it from  another direction than me and you do it for slightly different reasons, but we share it and that creates a connection. So I think for creatives, it’s not so much more difficult than for not creatives to get to the core, but in general, we are not used to that. And therefore it sometimes takes different approaches to see what works so what I mentioned before for instance the drawing elements, especially for creatives is something they know that drawing is something that can express their emotions. So to give you one example, I was working with a graphic designer and we were basically working on the on the gold circle, on the positioning, because he wanted to create a new website. And the big question of course was what should the website do, what should be on the website and for whom? In order to figure that out, when I asked him, sort of words didn’t land, but when I asked him: can you draw how you see yourself in the future? He took his pen and he was drawing and illustrating and then there was a house where he would work from home, there would be a surfboard: if they’re good waves, he could combine waving and working. So that opened a whole new world to explore. And to dig deeper and to look for these meaningful elements of the Why and for every person there is not a one size fits all but it’s rather a creative exploration to see what works and sometimes metaphors works or sometimes a song works to dig deeper. Why is that so meaningful to you or what is for instance, a peak moment when you felt very proud? From there I dig deeper with a lot of material, but it’s all the outer shell and the beauty I think of coaching is to get through the shell and there to go to the core.

Joel Pilger
I love that idea of helping people get in touch with what is deeper, what is truer and ultimately what is more valuable to the world. Because I sometimes find that creatives are somewhat trapped in these conventions, predictions, you might call it boxes because I know you talk about how we each grow up in a box. And sometimes helping people escape that box unleashes something beautiful that they now can offer the world that previously was trapped inside this statement. Hi, my name is Tom, I’m a UX designer at Booking.com, right? When you help people get outside of this box, what do you what do you find happens? What what’s the result?

Claudia Mayer
The result is really something that grows from the process because you never know. It could be a career change. It could be the realization of actually where I am right now and I’m really not happy. It could be also the realization of: I am exactly at the right space but I want to add something, I want to combine that. So you never know the results because you never know about the core unless you go there. And when we talk about the boxes, that is one way of humans being safe and being comfortable because if you say I’m an UX designer at this company people can put you in this box. Okay, this is this UX designer. But a lot of the creatives are multi potentialites. They have what we talked before you have multiple talents. Necause we are also sometimes feeling more comfortable to put ourselves in boxes and others. So it takes a bit of risk and daring to be different and that can also again, be the power of combining things that others don’t have. So eventually this fictional person Tom the UX designer, maybe it could be that he has a special handcrafting talent, and that that can again, increase his UX capability that he uses his handcrafting to do user research, for instance, or find his own method. I actually believe that there is a lot of potential if you if you if you unbox yourself, and if you create your own definition of who you are. And that’s because that, again, makes people curious: oh, this UX designer who is really good at knitting, and uses a knitting method to explore user needs as an example. So it is less conventional, but that is the right place for that person. Naming another tools and concepts is the value proposition canvas, which is a very simple one pager that basically combines what do you do with what people need. And again, if you use this canvas as a trigger to explore: with this special combination of talents, whom can I serve, with what kind of problem? There you are, you have your value proposition.

Joel Pilger
That sounds like a powerful tool and very simple. And I think it’s funny just to hear you describe it because so many people begin with: Well, what is the need, but they lose sight of? Yeah, but what is your unique, what is your core, what is the thing that you bring? It’s not simply you fulfilling a need. It’s finding that intersection. Is that what you’re telling us?

Claudia Mayer
One or two years ago, I recorded a video where I had a little aha moment where I figured out that talking about this value proposition, it is not about selling. It is not about someone forcing to use your services or your product, but I rather see it as matchmaking. So it is basically like dating, that you bring together two people who want each other and together, they’re more. Something I hear quite often that creatives don’t like sales and they don’t like to sell themselves and even force clients to work them. But rather, by rephrasing that and saying, let’s do some matchmaking. And let’s see if we match if what I do what I stand for, if that’s something that my client also stands for and something that he needs, then there is the match. And then this can be valuable collaboration. But if a designer or creative starts with this mindset: I have to sell – then probably it won’t work.

Joel Pilger
Claudia, I think you and I should declare a new mission today that they say in creative firm, that we will just redefine the word sales to simply mean matchmaking, because I totally agree. I totally agree. That’s all that sales is, is matchmaking. And that’s a much more optimistic and I think easier way to think about it.

Claudia Mayer
I feel it’s crazy that it’s not known already, or thought already and already in the mindset because there is so much fear and a negative component to sales. Probably it comes from the past where you had the vacuum cleaner guy knocking at your door saying this is the new machine, and these are 70,000 reasons why you need to buy it and then you just have to buy it because you’re a victim of the story. Probably that’s still in our heads that sales is something sleazy and negative. But actually, if you turn it around, it’s wonderful because you are helping your client grow. If he is happy, you are happy.

Joel Pilger
It’s such a simple way to think of it and like you said, Why is this not more commonly known? I think this is maybe so obvious, but perhaps it’s because we’ve each spent a long time maybe a lifetime in this industry and seeing it. But I think if I were to ask the average creative entrepreneur: if you could do some matchmaking, who would you like to match with? And then it becomes a question of fit. And, oh, well, maybe I would love to work with Apple because I think they are a great fit. And I would say, great. Maybe we should ask them out on a date and see the match.

Claudia Mayer
It is a lot about the mindset that changes something because it starts with the words so by calling it matchmaking it has this lighter, mutual, meaning rather than sales: I have to sell to you. And it’s rather a match making. It’s an active verb about exploring if my services or products would help you to do your job better. To do that, I think the value proposition canvas, this one page – service meets needs pverview – is a very useful tool. It is basically the heart, the core component of the business model canvas. The business model canvas is basically a visual business plan on a page with nine components and the value proposition is in the middle because it connects what you do and why you get paid for it. If we just now in this moment made it even easier to say: value proposition is basically matchmaking. Then hopefully with this term, we can also release a little bit of the fear and bring in more joy and lightness and the invitation to value your own service. And to be proud of what you can achieve for your clients.

Joel Pilger
I’ve got one more question for you. But before I ask it I want to first hear from you. For people that want to follow you stay in touch with you hear what you have to say what, what what are the best ways for people to stay in touch with you,

Claudia Mayer
As I’m also a very visual person I love Instagram. So you can find me on @coachingbyclaudia. And on LinkedIn, it’s Claudia Mayer, where I post regularly relevant resource I come across. I sometimes post my own insights or sneak peeks of my work also at the University, where I teach in the creative business program. A colorful mix of insights, and sometimes practical tools that really help to make the business side more fun, because I think if it’s more fun, it’s easier, and then the whole business side is supporting the creative talent.

Joel Pilger
I noticed that you have a motto, which is: Go for progress, not perfection. I really appreciate that perspective. I’m curious, how does someone actually do that? What does that mean?

Claudia Mayer
First of all to admit this is really difficult. I think to me, I admit, I was – I am – still a perfectionist. And I think for the past 30 plus years perfection was leading me and I got to the point of realization that perfection was hindering me and it was turning up my ambitions to level was just impossible. So I had a kind of honest conversation with myself to figure out what is my relationship with perfection? Does it serve me or does it hinder me? And I figured out that sometimes I use perfection to stay in the comfort zone because if I expect to do everything perfectly, then certain things I don’t have to do because I can’t do them perfectly. So it is a kind of a mask for staying in your comfort zone and hindering to explore new things and do scary things. Therefore, I defined this motto ‘go for progress, not perfection’. So in a way, I don’t even allow myself to do things perfectly. And I forced myself to just go for progress, just one step ahead, and not even allowing to do anything perfect because it’s a trap, because only I define what perfect means for myself. So I only make my own life harder because no one else in the world knows what I expect from my own perfectionist level. So this motto, I also share it commonly, because I sometimes see a face of relief. Oh, yes. Well, I don’t actually, I can choose do I want perfection or do I want progress and that’s motto so far is pushing me in the right direction.

Joel Pilger
I I really like that phrase you said where perfection can be a mask that allows you to stay in your comfort zone because obviously, as creatives we know that staying in our comfort zone is a form of, of death. It’s a form of decline, that creativity is all about growing and evolving and improving, and innovating. So I find that as well, I think that’s a very simple way to say it.

Claudia Mayer
I am curious. How about yourself? What is your progress and perfection love and hate story?

Joel Pilger
Well, it’s it’s similar to yours. I embraced perfection for a period of years early in my career. But then I had an amazing coach, a gentleman named Dan Sullivan, who runs the Strategic Coach, and he taught me this idea of ‘Don’t worry about perfection, just go just pursue progress’. And it was very freeing for me because I would say fast forward to today, I don’t mean to sound elitist, but I don’t find the concept of perfection very interesting – anymore. I find the concept of greatness very interesting and exciting. But perfection, I agree with you, I think it is very often the excuse that we use, so we don’t have to change. We don’t have to grow. It was perfect, therefore it was unachievable and that gives me the excuse I need to stay where I am. But if the goal is greatness, well, greatness is often within reach, we can achieve that. And so to me, that’s a more a much more interesting and inspiring concept.

Claudia Mayer
It is and I think, sometimes this model, so this is even my life motto. It’s not easy to do, and it takes, you know, in my case, more than 30 years to figure out what it is. But that’s also the beauty of being active and reflecting on yourself and having good deep conversations with people who are interested in you. It can be friends and family because they are interested, of course. But sometimes I learned I also had my own coahes for my own process. It is really valuable to have someone who is neutral, objective and basically, with his or her only goal is to stick to your goals and to hold you accountable and to get out the potential that you have.

Joel Pilger
I appreciate you so much for spending this time with me today. On the podcast, it’s been really fun for me, hearing your perspective and your journey and of course, how you work with your clients to help them navigate this career where creativity and business intersect. So thank you so much for spending time with me today.

Claudia Mayer
Well, thank you. It was a great conversation and we discovered a lot of commonalities.

Joel Pilger
Yes, for sure. Well, I’ll be sure to include the links to Instagram and your LinkedIn, in the notes when we post this podcast. So for anyone listening, they can go and find you and follow you and keep up with what you’re talking about and what you’re doing and the other insights that you’re sharing with the world. Well, Claudia, thanks again for joining me on the RevThinking podcast. I I always love having guests that really understands this beautiful intersection of creativity and commerce. So thanks again on behalf of the people listening, and I look forward to you and I staying in touch and perhaps someday, sharing a stage together.

Claudia Mayer
Let’s let’s go forward and we keep on pushing the matchmaking approach.

Joel Pilger
That’s right.

RevThinking Podcast
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